EP19 (Part 2): “I Want to Plant my Flag with You All Over Here” – Nkata with Njideka Akunyili Crosby

[Opening theme music] Njideka Akunyili Crosby So I think I'm talking about being worried and Njideka Akunyili Crosby I think what really started worrying me is at Njideka Akunyili Crosby this point, I'm getting closer and closer to the deadline and Njideka Akunyili Crosby I still hadn't figured out a major part of the composition. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I think what really like shook my confidence is. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I had had a, maybe like, because I'm such a planner. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby That it's rare for me to finally make a decision and it doesn't work. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I'm not like Njideka Akunyili Crosby I'm not somebody who is unable to pivot. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I will switch. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But it is rare just because I take so Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: long to like, plan and stetch and Emeka Okereke: To plant things around, they're very meticulous. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: think it through and very meticulous. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So if it doesn't work, I shrug it off. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's not ideal. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I'm kind of irritated, but I move it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I don't, I'm not wedded to things. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like if it's not working, it's not working. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But for it, and it's rare for it to happen. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like just a handful of times it's happened in years. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby so for it to happen once, I thought, oh, God Njideka Akunyili Crosby this is already like, you know where you're like, oh, is this a bad omen? Njideka Akunyili Crosby You shrug it off, you keep going, and then it happened again. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So like twice in the same piece. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, 1st of all, was having the window in the wrong place and Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby then realizing the thing I wanted in Njideka Akunyili Crosby the window was not right. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I think that really messed Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby with my head and I got really nervous. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know where you feel like, 0 god, I think I've lost my… Emeka Okereke: Wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I've lost something. Njideka Akunyili Crosby something is not clicking. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think I was, I think I like stress, I was Emeka Okereke: Yep. Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, I think I just found myself thinking Njideka Akunyili Crosby oh God, I'm like, you know, there are some athletes that Njideka Akunyili Crosby do well at the last 3 seconds and they step up to the clock. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think this whole project, I thought, I think I'm not that person. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I think I'm not that athlete who does well in clutch moments. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I'm too scared and level. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I'm worried Emeka Okereke Could it be, could it be, could it be one Emeka Okereke of these 2 things or both, one being that Emeka Okereke the, you know, the immensity, of Emeka Okereke of the task, you know, like having to Emeka Okereke you know, put your bombers in this space. Emeka Okereke Come on, this is, I mean, that's larger than life. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You know, this is, this is going to be there for, you know, I Njideka Akunyili Crosby: who Emeka Okereke That's one, that's one. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: We, like, I can't even imagine when Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke I, when I saw, you know, you know Emeka Okereke the publicity, you standing talking about the work and Emeka Okereke also, Barack and Michelle Emeka Okereke discussing it, all of you. Emeka Okereke I'm like, this is, this is incredible. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: I was even feeling for you, how you would be feeling Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh. Emeka Okereke you know, like, how, you know, it's incredible. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Congratulations so much, so much. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: View. Emeka Okereke Because already, I can imagine the Emeka Okereke the amount of, you know, the weight of responsibility that comes with that. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Forget, you know, the other aspect of it, but the weight that to get it right. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke So that's one, and then secondly is, if Emeka Okereke it was something that you are doing as part of your artwork where Emeka Okereke you are collecting your, you know, and going by your Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: own inner compass and not, you know, would Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes, yes. Emeka Okereke it have been like, so which one is it? Emeka Okereke Oh, is it both? Njideka Akunyili Crosby hold on, I want to make sure, I Njideka Akunyili Crosby don't forget what I wanted to talk on. Njideka Akunyili Crosby No, I think it's both. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So 1st of all, going back to the window stuff. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I think even if it wasn't them, I would have made those 2 changes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It just was a coincidence that it was for this piece. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: None of those worked out and I don't think even Njideka Akunyili Crosby if it wasn't for them, I don't think I would have left any of those in. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but there was the pressure of doing this for someone else. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because one, I had to come up with a whole new archive. Emeka Okereke: Mhm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it's like feeling like getting to know these people feeling like you want to be Njideka Akunyili Crosby true, you want to really capture who they are. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So there is the pressure of telling someone else's Njideka Akunyili Crosby story, which is, 0 my god, what if I forget somebody important to them? Njideka Akunyili Crosby What if they look at it and they realize like, oh, my best friend from like Njideka Akunyili Crosby 10 years ago is not in here. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So there was that fear that was like hanging Njideka Akunyili Crosby over me the whole time. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I think what it was because I will have conversations Njideka Akunyili Crosby with my husband, like why, why am I Njideka Akunyili Crosby struggling so much with this? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Why does this feel so different? Njideka Akunyili Crosby For instance, like if I want to figure out Where? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Let's say a jog goes in my work. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I would do little drawings or I would put in Photoshop Njideka Akunyili Crosby I would try it in different places to figure out where it goes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But if I try 10 different places and it's not working Njideka Akunyili Crosby out, I let it go. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I just, you know, it's like, sorry, Jog, you don't make it into this one. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Hopefully in another piece you'll make it in. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think what I realizes that I didn't have that luxury Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby with this work. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So for instance, from the beginning, I had a list of Njideka Akunyili Crosby things for myself that I knew I absolutely wanted Njideka Akunyili Crosby to be within the space, not as transfers. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So one of it was the Charles Alston Njideka Akunyili Crosby the sculpture of MLK that Njideka Akunyili Crosby President Obama had in the White House. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted it physically in the room. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I think I ended up having, I Njideka Akunyili Crosby think I like 50 Separate Njideka Akunyili Crosby drawings, like documents of where that piece could be. Emeka Okereke Well. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And the reason why there were 60 is that I had, I Njideka Akunyili Crosby had 3 different versions. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So if you imagine like the head. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I had like a version like this, a version more Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby like this and a version more like this. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So just like slightly turned a little bit slight. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then for each version, I had Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby like 3 different scales, like, you know, is it like this? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Is it like this, is it like this? Njideka Akunyili Crosby So that's what 3 by 3, 9. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So now you have like 9 different versions you're trying. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it's like, I tried it on the left Njideka Akunyili Crosby side of the piece right next to where he's sitting. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I tried it slightly farther left. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I tried it on the other side of the table and Njideka Akunyili Crosby I tried it on the table in front. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I could not figure Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, you know where you're just like, so with each one, it's like Njideka Akunyili Crosby 9 different times, like, doing all these versions, doing Njideka Akunyili Crosby all these versions and I just could, it was not working anyway. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Eventually, I figured out a place for it to work. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I was telling my husband, like, if that wasn't Njideka Akunyili Crosby for them, I would have just chocked that idea. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I would have just said this is not working. Emeka Okereke: Oh, ah, okay. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I won't put this in. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I can do that because there is no 2nd version. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like if it doesn't make it into this piece, there's Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby nothing else for it to make it into, so it created a situation where Njideka Akunyili Crosby I had to work harder to make the things Njideka Akunyili Crosby I wanted to work work. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like I couldn't give up after version 19 Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: or version 25 or version 32 because Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I wanted this thing in the work and I couldn't Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby let it go. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So I eventually figured it out and we made it work Njideka Akunyili Crosby but then later on in the composition, I ended up adding a shelf Njideka Akunyili Crosby in the deep space. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And at some point, Sean, who works for me, Sean Njideka Akunyili Crosby John goes like, oh, how about moving the Njideka Akunyili Crosby the MLK head to the shelf? Njideka Akunyili Crosby And all of us at the same time, just like, no. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Because we had spent like weeks. Njideka Akunyili Crosby They had seen me for weeks trying to figure this out and Njideka Akunyili Crosby it was just like, no, we are not moving in. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But anyway, it was it was a whole thing. Emeka Okereke It's incredible because then Emeka Okereke now, how do you, how do you feel about Emeka Okereke it eventually, is this something that Emeka Okereke you now say, okay, I have another, you know, it's Emeka Okereke like a badge of honor, and I have another set Emeka Okereke of skills in my, in my toolbox as Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: as to how to approach art making that this Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke Yeah, yeah? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes, so for myself, again Njideka Akunyili Crosby thinking of the pieces I consider not successful or the pieces I put away. Njideka Akunyili Crosby What I want for Njideka Akunyili Crosby myself with each piece is to feel like I Njideka Akunyili Crosby tried out something or I learned something or Njideka Akunyili Crosby I pushed myself in a different way. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like, you know, one or more of those need to happen. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And if it doesn't, it's fine, but personally, I feel like. Njideka Akunyili Crosby No, you want to be again, I like learning. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I like to know that something, something was moved, something was moved. Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby it doesn't mean the peace would be more Njideka Akunyili Crosby successful than the stuff before, but at least I, Learn something. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I push something. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And because again, I think of working as Njideka Akunyili Crosby a toolbox, and with each piece you add something new to your Njideka Akunyili Crosby toolbox, you add something new. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And with this like commission, I felt like I added a lot. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yep. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My toolbox. Njideka Akunyili Crosby he also made me. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yeah, I feel like I added a lot and it also made me realize. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I don't, again, it's not like I don't let myself make changes Njideka Akunyili Crosby but it made me realize that, Maybe. Njideka Akunyili Crosby The places where I would have given up before, like I Njideka Akunyili Crosby could stay with it just a little bit. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I think because I didn't have the choice of giving up. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It made me push through and really interesting things happened. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, I know I put in a lot of thoughts and time Njideka Akunyili Crosby to my composition. Njideka Akunyili Crosby compositions, but just also realizing like it could even be more. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Not all the time because that was a lot mentally Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but sometimes, you know. Emeka Okereke: Yeah, but this one had his own set of Emeka Okereke prescriptions and mandates Emeka Okereke which in an officer becomes part of the work, right? Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke: So, the other work will have a Emeka Okereke its own, is on Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: demands for its own treatment, you Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke know, because the flexibility as well, leaving something out and bringing Emeka Okereke something else also is what that work calls for, right? Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke: So, is, wow, it's incredible. Emeka Okereke Now, after all of that now, I guess Emeka Okereke you've decompressed now, huh? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: After. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Still, still, still in the middle of it. Emeka Okereke Wow. Emeka Okereke And how do you feel? Emeka Okereke What, what do you feel as the significance Emeka Okereke of this moment for you, but for you, but also Emeka Okereke in general, eventually Emeka Okereke you've been able to see it in space. Emeka Okereke You've been able to be in the building. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You've been able to see all of the other context that surrounds the work eventually. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke So how are you feeling about it all now? Njideka Akunyili Crosby I still complicated. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I felt like it took me a long time to kind of Njideka Akunyili Crosby exhale and breed and, Be Njideka Akunyili Crosby happy and take it all in. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It was like, oh, it's like artists were so hard on ourselves. Njideka Akunyili Crosby it's funny because when I came in today, I saw my, I saw had like Njideka Akunyili Crosby all my lists up on the wall from the project because the Njideka Akunyili Crosby studio has kind of been on an extended break since more or less. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I have like a list I made maybe in February Njideka Akunyili Crosby of the time, the Njideka Akunyili Crosby things in the world that I knew were going to be time intensive Njideka Akunyili Crosby and I wanted to make sure I got to them. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it's like, Mrs. Obama's dress Njideka Akunyili Crosby the table ledge, the flowers and the vase Njideka Akunyili Crosby the things on the shelf. Njideka Akunyili Crosby anyway, I had the whole list. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And there were 2 that I didn't cross off. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I did them, but I end up, it was like I was working on it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I mean, by the last month I was sleeping like 4 Njideka Akunyili Crosby hours, 5 hours a night. Njideka Akunyili Crosby so I did them, but I didn't quite get Njideka Akunyili Crosby to it as I wanted. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And because I didn't kind of get to it the Njideka Akunyili Crosby way I wanted, I fixate, that was Njideka Akunyili Crosby like the only thing I could latch onto and I couldn't step back and Njideka Akunyili Crosby take everything in, so. Njideka Akunyili Crosby You know, it's like, 0 god, how much do I reveal? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yeah, no, no, no, no. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I was crying on pickup day because. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And my assistant was actually ask for an extra day. Njideka Akunyili Crosby but it was just, I was like, I mean, I was just, I was Njideka Akunyili Crosby also like I was exhausted. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was tired. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I had lived and breeded this for almost 2 years. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And then, you know, when you felt like you're so close, but you didn't Njideka Akunyili Crosby quite, I felt like I didn't stick the landing in my mind for myself. Njideka Akunyili Crosby so my assistant, he's amazing. Njideka Akunyili Crosby He was just like, should we get an extra day? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Maybe we can. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I was also like once so exhausted that Njideka Akunyili Crosby I actually, Don't know if I would have Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: been sensible if I got an extra day Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but two, I've, you know, I've Njideka Akunyili Crosby had worked on it for so long that I actually wanted it gone Njideka Akunyili Crosby because I felt like Njideka Akunyili Crosby My life had been overtaken with this. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like I was, I was living in the studio. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like, I'm not a figure of speech. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was living here. Njideka Akunyili Crosby There is a futon here. Njideka Akunyili Crosby There's like a restroom here with like wardrobe Njideka Akunyili Crosby bat, everything. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's built for live work. Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was living here. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was not involved in my family life. Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like my husband will bring, like once a Njideka Akunyili Crosby week, he'll bring a travel bag with clean clothes Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and take my dirty clothes home. Emeka Okereke: Wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was going home. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, like he'll bring the kids on the weekends to see me. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I might go home like once a week. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it just felt like he had gone on for so long. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I actually felt like I want to be released from this. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I didn't want an extra day. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But that actually ended up being good. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I couldn't get. Emeka Okereke: Okay. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I think sometimes I tend to overwork things. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And so that was a learning thing from this to realize we Njideka Akunyili Crosby actually don't have to get everything to Njideka Akunyili Crosby this particular level. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Sometimes it's good to have more like rougher Njideka Akunyili Crosby things and sometimes like having those more Njideka Akunyili Crosby rough things actually make the more like detailed Njideka Akunyili Crosby things have a bigger effect. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So this thing that when it happened Njideka Akunyili Crosby I thought was like the most horrible thing and I was so Njideka Akunyili Crosby distraught over it ended up being fine. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And my sister knew I was upset and so when Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby she saw the piece, you know, she was like, what is the part you were upset about? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Exactly. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I posted it out. Emeka Okereke: Where is it? Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And she was just like, Njideka, you are the only Emeka Okereke: Don't worry, that's. Njideka Akunyili Crosby one who will know. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, she really was just like, what are you talking about? Emeka Okereke: Wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was like, oh, but can't you see, blah, blah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby No, like, and you know, she's honest. Njideka Akunyili Crosby She's like, I am being honest with you. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Nobody will know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So I was like, okay, okay, okay. Emeka Okereke And also the Obamas, you know, what was the, I Emeka Okereke mean, we saw a bit of their reaction, right? Emeka Okereke to it on, it was, it was there. Emeka Okereke They, you know, they Emeka Okereke they embraced it completely. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke No, yeah? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So, but, you know, like something I'm Njideka Akunyili Crosby I work on in my studio is to let things go and sometimes I'll Njideka Akunyili Crosby actually like break into the frozen song and sing it to myself Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just like trying to remind myself, like, let things go, let things go. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Again, I will like latch on and. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sometimes overwork things. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So I think the deadline made me realize Njideka Akunyili Crosby that, oh, this is something I am, I Njideka Akunyili Crosby saw as a bad thing, but it actually should be Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in my toolbox to just have Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby places you just speed through. Emeka Okereke So, and sometimes also, all Emeka Okereke of this underscores for Emeka Okereke all the experiences we go through is Emeka Okereke often to show us, you know, what Emeka Okereke we can, you know, what we are capable of Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: 1st of all, what we are capable of, this Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke trend, but also at the same time, show Emeka Okereke you know, I mean, I feel like if you have a Emeka Okereke commission like this next time, it's like if you're seasoned, you know? Emeka Okereke Yeah, yes. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, I just laugh when people say like, no, no, no, no, no. Emeka Okereke: Who knows? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Maybe Donald Trump, who come? Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went great. Look at that. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Look. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Absolutely not. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I went glay. Emeka Okereke: No. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I went gray in what, 6 months? Emeka Okereke For you? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes, between January and June, I went grays. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like that's when I know you know stress makes you gray Njideka Akunyili Crosby but I actually like lived it in my life. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I was like, no, no. Emeka Okereke: This, I know that it must have been stressful Emeka Okereke but at the same time, this is such Emeka Okereke an iconic thing. Emeka Okereke Like, this is Emeka Okereke Ah, it can be overemphasized, Dan. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: I mean, anyone can say anything about the Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke center, but the symbol of it. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You know, the symbol of it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke: It's Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm sorry, this ties into a question you asked. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I had wanted to answer this and I forgot and I just remembered now. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mhm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But something I was talking to my sister because Njideka Akunyili Crosby she knew I was a, you know, like, she's like my Njideka Akunyili Crosby she was such a Zen person. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She called a lot during the last. Emeka Okereke: Is it is that Ijeoma, your elder. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No, the young, my younger sister Chi Chi. Emeka Okereke: Okay. Okay. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We talked a lot towards the end and she was, because I couldn't Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby tell a lot of people. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And so they were kind of like, my husband Njideka Akunyili Crosby my good friend, phenomenal artist, Christian Flynn, and Chi Chi knew. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So those were the people, I was kind of like bouncing ideas with Njideka Akunyili Crosby and of course, my studio knew. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And we're like very close lipped. Njideka Akunyili Crosby We had a curtain over it, even the people who come to clean the studio Njideka Akunyili Crosby did not know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby till later on when it was announced. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But something I was telling her that I Njideka Akunyili Crosby like makes me happier, I think of as a big advantage Njideka Akunyili Crosby for doing the commission is Njideka Akunyili Crosby that I'm, sorry, I might, it's going to be hard, it might be hard for Njideka Akunyili Crosby me to explain, but I must think of it as like, It's Njideka Akunyili Crosby it's almost like Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like it's not quite a map or but it shows… Njideka Akunyili Crosby People. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Hold on, let me try and explain. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So within my work. Njideka Akunyili Crosby There are these moves I make that I don't feel. Njideka Akunyili Crosby always come across. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Or like people see, especially if you Njideka Akunyili Crosby don't know what the references are. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Which is fine. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I knew that going in and I do it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it's like if there's a specific parts Njideka Akunyili Crosby in on the dining table. Njideka Akunyili Crosby You don't know it's a bulk, it means nothing to you. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So there, so I feel like the level of research Njideka Akunyili Crosby I do, is not always Njideka Akunyili Crosby visible or readily visible. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And because the Njideka Akunyili Crosby references are obscure for people. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I think the thing I liked about this Njideka Akunyili Crosby is that it was an Njideka Akunyili Crosby image of 2 very known people. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And the references are quite accessible. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And so it almost became like a Njideka Akunyili Crosby work that I feel will be easy for people to interpret. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know, is this making, I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. Emeka Okereke: Mhm Mhm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby it's almost like Njideka Akunyili Crosby It may be like it's more legible. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And what I do hopefully can be clearer in this work. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like when I'm thinking of it, for instance. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So you have 2 of them. Njideka Akunyili Crosby He's sitting on a desk. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's a made up desk. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So you can kind of see like this thing I do where I'm using made up and heavily research. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So he's sitting on a made up desk. Njideka Akunyili Crosby but the face, the edge of the Njideka Akunyili Crosby desk, has this like transparent Njideka Akunyili Crosby painting that is of the carving from the resolute Njideka Akunyili Crosby desk, which is the desk he used in the Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oval Office when he was president. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And far as that, you have the window behind them. Njideka Akunyili Crosby The window behind them is divided into three, which Njideka Akunyili Crosby is the way the oval office windows are Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: divided, they are in sections of three. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And so, you know, lots of times when we saw him in the Oval Office Njideka Akunyili Crosby we were seeing him in front of these 3 sectioned windows Njideka Akunyili Crosby we might not, people might not immediately recall it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But when they see that 3 section window. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's gonna scratch a memory. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This feeling of why does this feel? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Somewhat familiar? Emeka Okereke Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like, why do I know this space? Njideka Akunyili Crosby You know the space because it's referencing a space you've seen him Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in front of a lot. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then within outside the window is Njideka Akunyili Crosby an image of Chicago and it's actually the street Njideka Akunyili Crosby and specifically the house. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Mrs. Obama grew up in on Euclid. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And then in like, you know, there's the curtain Njideka Akunyili Crosby next to the window, it ended up being burgundy. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had originally thought maroon would be better, but in the studies Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby burgundy was good because when he redesigned the Oval Njideka Akunyili Crosby Office, he had maroon curtains. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So again, thinking of this curtains next to the window to kind Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of like tickle that like, oh, I've seen this space then. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And then in front of the curtains is Plumeria. Njideka Akunyili Crosby and I've been using a lot of plants in my work because again Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: thinking of borders and migration plants are such a big part of that. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Plumeria is a cosmopolitan plant and Njideka Akunyili Crosby kind of founding all these locales Njideka Akunyili Crosby that President Obama has existed in, I think of Njideka Akunyili Crosby it as being connected to his history. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So Indonesia, Kenya, Hawaii, and other places. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby then what else? Njideka Akunyili Crosby You know, it's like on the other side there's a vase on the small table. Njideka Akunyili Crosby the vase is made by Njideka Akunyili Crosby it's something from the past. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was made by a formerly enslaved person called Dave, who Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: was an incredible potter. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So he's Dave the Potter. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And then even the plants inside the vase are heavily Njideka Akunyili Crosby research, we have a whole folder on flower symbolism. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So there's okra, which came over with enslaved Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby people and is now a big part of the cuisine of Njideka Akunyili Crosby black Americans. Njideka Akunyili Crosby there's okra, there are plants from Mrs. Obama's Njideka Akunyili Crosby kitchen gardens, so like peppers. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Sorry, I don't have the work in front of me now and I'm forgetting things. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby but there is a torch ginger. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I think like torch ginger. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Oh God, I can't remember. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It almost like, I think it's maybe from originally from Indonesia Njideka Akunyili Crosby but it's now naturalized in Kenya Njideka Akunyili Crosby and then there's like a, there was Njideka Akunyili Crosby a special kind of hibiscus. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I can't remember. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sorry, I haven't looked at all this research in a while. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby but there's a, is going to come back to me Njideka Akunyili Crosby but it's a specific hibiscus that is from, East Njideka Akunyili Crosby African, Kenya, but is now acculturated Njideka Akunyili Crosby in Hawaii. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I think there are other things, but I can't remember Njideka Akunyili Crosby I'm trying to think of what else. Njideka Akunyili Crosby There's the MLK sculpture. Njideka Akunyili Crosby We've talked about it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So for me, my mind thinking of this Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: move in time from an enslaved person to MLK Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby to the Obamas in the White House. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This kind of move of history. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then, oh, on the other side, there's, yes. Emeka Okereke: And crossings. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then on the other side of him, there's like his Nobel Peace Prizes open. Njideka Akunyili Crosby There is a paper on the table, that is the Harvard Law Review. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And this is a part where it's like nobody's ever going to know this or Emeka Okereke: Wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby notice it, but it's actually the particular copy that Njideka Akunyili Crosby is depicted, even though they all look alike, is the very 1st Njideka Akunyili Crosby edition from when he was president of the Harvard Law Review. Njideka Akunyili Crosby then, in the Njideka Akunyili Crosby in the cabinet, in the back or not the cabinet Njideka Akunyili Crosby the bookcase in Njideka Akunyili Crosby the back is like the top 2 rows are books and it's Njideka Akunyili Crosby some of their favorite books that they've talked about. Njideka Akunyili Crosby in different places over time. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And at the very top is an Emmy, he's won Njideka Akunyili Crosby an Emmy, there's a picture of their kids. Njideka Akunyili Crosby there's a basketball that was gifted to him. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Basketball is a big part of his life, and the pattern around Njideka Akunyili Crosby the frame of the kids is actually Njideka Akunyili Crosby a pattern from a Njideka Akunyili Crosby Curtain that we saw in one of Njideka Akunyili Crosby the pictures Mrs. Obama posted on like Facebook Njideka Akunyili Crosby that is from a Christmas from when she was a child. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So I don't know if that was her house Njideka Akunyili Crosby or her aunt's house because they lived upstairs. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Her aunts live downstairs, but that curtain is from Njideka Akunyili Crosby somewhere in that house. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So we found the pattern and put it on the frame. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And then I think there's like a Njideka Akunyili Crosby a shelf with their Grammys, because between the 2 Njideka Akunyili Crosby of them, they won 4 Grammys, and then Njideka Akunyili Crosby there is a framed program from MLK's Njideka Akunyili Crosby March on Washington, which is when he gave that famous I Njideka Akunyili Crosby have a dream speech, and President Obama had that same Njideka Akunyili Crosby frame program in the Oval Office when he was there. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So again, it's like, This is the level Njideka Akunyili Crosby of research and detail and connections Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I bring into a lot of my works Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but, I Njideka Akunyili Crosby feel like it's not Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like, unless I tell you, it's had to piece Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby it all together, but I feel like with this one. Njideka Akunyili Crosby People are able to. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't. Emeka Okereke: So you think that this work now sort Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: of like brings your process, really Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it makes it more visible. Emeka Okereke: into the everyday, everyday person, because Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Yes. Emeka Okereke those people who are going to kids are going to come frequent there Emeka Okereke and everyone from Chicago as well, who know the story Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: many of them, who have to pass, come through there. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Exactly, exactly. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: So it feels like it brings you. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, well, in. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes, so, you know, I'm thinking of, say, the wedding dress Njideka Akunyili Crosby piece, which I love, again, I love research. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's like my fun thing. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but sometimes I feel like that there's all this research is Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, things I figure out and put in the work. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And, It's like they Njideka Akunyili Crosby can't be decoded because they're from somewhere else. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it's, I mean, like 1st Nigerians can decode it, which is why Njideka Akunyili Crosby I feel like I love conversations with Nigerians in front of the work. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's a whole different thing. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And so for me, it feels, I am grateful to have Njideka Akunyili Crosby a work, that has elements Njideka Akunyili Crosby that can be more easily decoded Njideka Akunyili Crosby for people who live here. Emeka Okereke It's incredible. Emeka Okereke And I wonder if that's, you know, again Emeka Okereke with, yeah, now we're talking about that tension between Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: transparency and opacity as well, right? Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke I wonder if it is always necessary to decode it Emeka Okereke as, Or Emeka Okereke is it that the fact that you are even making those associations Emeka Okereke with, will over time, become like Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So, that's why I was saying, I've been thinking of this class on iconology Njideka Akunyili Crosby and iconography. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Ah, sorry, Michael Cothren, if I'm not saying it right. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby because some of the, meanings Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of certain things have been lost in time, and not a lot have not. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But just realizing like even if you don't know them, you still Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: enjoy the works, but when you do know them. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's like this whole other, layer of stuff. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was thinking making the work I was thinking a lot of this painting Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby in the national gallery in London called The Ambassadors. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I mean, please, I'm not saying this is near it. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The Ambassadors is phenomenal, but just Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby going and looking through it and it's just like chock full of Njideka Akunyili Crosby symbols and Njideka Akunyili Crosby You know, just this realization of like, oh, this is kind of what I'm doing Njideka Akunyili Crosby where you're like putting all these things that carry different Njideka Akunyili Crosby meanings and you're kind of thinking of how they Njideka Akunyili Crosby are connected and how you're weaving together a story. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It adds other layers to the work. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But as I'm making the work and I'm working on the composition, those Njideka Akunyili Crosby are almost like, You know how like you Njideka Akunyili Crosby hide little, what do they call those like Easter eggs? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yes, yes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because I'm also just trying to make a work that stands Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: on his own because that's what I've learned to do. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like if you don't have known nothing about Nigeria Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: can you still enjoy this work, if you can't code Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: any of that stuff in it? Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so. Emeka Okereke: At least, can you take you so to some poetic place where you can? Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Exactly. Well, it's like I don't know the specifics of this, but I have a feeling Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: kind of stuff. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so it was, I was also thinking of that with this Emeka Okereke: You, so. Njideka Akunyili Crosby but it was harder again because I didn't see the whole thing come Njideka Akunyili Crosby together till very late. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I think the thing that kept worrying me is, because Njideka Akunyili Crosby even like the deep space was not done till like, 2 Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: weeks before pickup, that whole place was white. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And so it was this feeling of, oh, what if everything Njideka Akunyili Crosby you know, it's like you're putting little pieces of a puzzle. Njideka Akunyili Crosby and I usually put Njideka Akunyili Crosby everything together, maybe, 30 Njideka Akunyili Crosby like way back and then I start saying, okay, does Njideka Akunyili Crosby this go and I start shifting things, but this Njideka Akunyili Crosby I almost have to go on faith, like, everything is Njideka Akunyili Crosby going to come together, like the last piece will be put in last Njideka Akunyili Crosby minute, and if I step back and look at it and it's Njideka Akunyili Crosby not working, I will not have time. Njideka Akunyili Crosby to make any adjustments. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So that really was freaking me out. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but also making me make sure like I really thought Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: through everything before I put it in because it's like, if Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby this goes, I probably cannot. Njideka Akunyili Crosby If this goes in, I cannot move it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I just I will not have time to move it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So that, Yeah, that was something. Emeka Okereke It seems to me that your process is living a Emeka Okereke space for, Like Emeka Okereke the possibility of reading your work in a sudden way. Emeka Okereke Down the line, right? Emeka Okereke Right now, we are seeing your work Emeka Okereke being appreciated in the mainstream. Emeka Okereke Yeah? Emeka Okereke But then there is this other aspect that your process Emeka Okereke as you're going through it, that is opening up, you Emeka Okereke know, to go, especially because you reference Emeka Okereke it as well as one of the things, things that really got Emeka Okereke you into art, is when you began to see the many associations Emeka Okereke that could be made, right? Emeka Okereke and the conversations that they can, and then you're trying to be part of that movement as well. Emeka Okereke you know, crossings back and forth and of our time. Emeka Okereke I feel like your work will, even the way you're going with your Emeka Okereke process, meticulously, and even the way the actual doing it, is Emeka Okereke preparing that space for a real appreciation Emeka Okereke of that down the line. Emeka Okereke But right now, it is making, it has Emeka Okereke its place, it's on, in the mainstream. Emeka Okereke So I wonder sometimes if you see a tension between these 2 Emeka Okereke ways of appreciating your work, one is the mainstream Emeka Okereke appreciation of it, you know, reading it as this Emeka Okereke you know, very articulated, you know Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: proposal from you know, understands on his own. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke But then there's this other aspect, which is Emeka Okereke what you are doing is, from this Emeka Okereke other angle is what many, very Emeka Okereke few Africans actually can succeed in when you Emeka Okereke want to play with that icons, those icons without Emeka Okereke feticizing it. Emeka Okereke You know, without falling prey Emeka Okereke to the romanticization of it, you know, or splashing colors everywhere. Emeka Okereke You know, that's really usually, that's, that's usually what Emeka Okereke we see when some African artists Emeka Okereke want to go into that grabbing the Ankara Emeka Okereke patterns and all of that. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Emeka Okereke But in your work, it is you Emeka Okereke it's almost as if you see all of that and you Emeka Okereke you are considering those in your, in Emeka Okereke in, and so they become not just the aesthetics of Emeka Okereke it, but also the ethics of the work. Emeka Okereke Yeah, it's a. Emeka Okereke So I wonder if. Emeka Okereke You see a certain kind of tension in ways that your work, your work is received. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I don't know, I'm going to try for an answer. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Please let me know if I don't answer, if I don't answer, If Njideka Akunyili Crosby I don't answer the question, because I'm still kind of Njideka Akunyili Crosby trying to process the question for myself. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I also want to make sure I don't disparage any artists because Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have love for all my African Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, artists of the, from the continent working Njideka Akunyili Crosby just the choosing to be an artist is an Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: incredible choice and brave because Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby there's a lot of pushback. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I think for me, the Njideka Akunyili Crosby thing that has helped is Njideka Akunyili Crosby and sometimes I do find myself thinking, oh, is this maybe limiting Njideka Akunyili Crosby I don't know, we all have things we worry about and think about. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I try to ground things Njideka Akunyili Crosby in what I know and Njideka Akunyili Crosby in what I've experienced, is that whole like you Njideka Akunyili Crosby write what you know, but then sometimes I think, oh, but isn't that limiting? Njideka Akunyili Crosby There are people who write things, they don't know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby People write fantasies about middle earth and there's no middle earth. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like am I limiting myself? Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I think for me, it makes me. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Feel like I Njideka Akunyili Crosby can stand for what I'm doing. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like I can stand behind it and Njideka Akunyili Crosby I don't know, I can defend it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like, if, if, if, it's like, I know this is Njideka Akunyili Crosby true because I've experienced this or I know this Njideka Akunyili Crosby is how it is because I've lived it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So I'm going to use an example and then we'll see if Njideka Akunyili Crosby maybe you take a pass on if you want to rephrase the question. Emeka Okereke Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But for instance, when I was in graduate school, my 1st year. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I knew that I was thinking about Njideka Akunyili Crosby Lagos, Nigeria, more specifically Lagos Njideka Akunyili Crosby as a very cosmopolitan place. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And a cosmopolitanism that really wasn't Njideka Akunyili Crosby seen or talked about where Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was in the United States. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like, you know, I just felt there was this like beauty and vibrancy. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It has its own issues. Njideka Akunyili Crosby We can like talk about all that, but there is this Njideka Akunyili Crosby part of it that is exciting Njideka Akunyili Crosby that is always muffin, that is always on the move. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's like Lagos buzzes. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I wanted to talk about that, just this kind of Njideka Akunyili Crosby clash between how a place is perceived Njideka Akunyili Crosby and how a place really is. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I was seeing aspects of that in Wangechi's work. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And so when I 1st started tying with the idea Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was kind of, you know, it's like how you walk through a thought process. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was walking through the ideas quickly and what I was Njideka Akunyili Crosby doing and this is again, I loved Wangechi so much. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I almost there. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know how you start like making work similar to the person you like. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was making these collages that were very one one. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I got, somebody had gifted me one of Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby those like African books, that is like national geographic Njideka Akunyili Crosby photos, and I had like all magazines Njideka Akunyili Crosby like vogue and vanity, whatever they are Njideka Akunyili Crosby high, high fashion magazines. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So I will look through both and find like one Njideka Akunyili Crosby picture from the other and cut and Njideka Akunyili Crosby collage it in such a way that it's like a seamless match. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But it would be like, this ball Njideka Akunyili Crosby gown, but the head coming out from it is Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, some, you Njideka Akunyili Crosby know, like, sorry, like poets, tribal, African Njideka Akunyili Crosby person with paint. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And so I was doing those and like looking back on those Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, they're not online, but I have them, whereas like they Emeka Okereke: Mm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby were not successful works, but they kind of were the beginnings Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of something I was interested in. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That was like the easiest way I could get to it before it got more complicated. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I think what kind of, Brought Njideka Akunyili Crosby me up short was I was having a studio visit once and Njideka Akunyili Crosby I had like one of those collages and we're talking about it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And the professor asked me like, where Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, kind of like, who are these people? Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I realized I didn't even know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I didn't know what part of the continent they came from. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I didn't know who this is like, you're critiquing something Njideka Akunyili Crosby and you are part of it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Like, this kind of flattening and I Njideka Akunyili Crosby and that was, I think, when I realized I wanted to lean into Njideka Akunyili Crosby specificity. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, why are you using this generic African Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby pictures, like, you know, the relationship Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you have to Nigeria, mind that. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that's when I really started pulling pictures from like Njideka Akunyili Crosby the Nigerian magazines I got when I went home, the pictures Njideka Akunyili Crosby I took, the pictures from Nigerian newspapers Njideka Akunyili Crosby the pictures from my friends, this feeling of Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, I want to be able to talk Njideka Akunyili Crosby about every image I have. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like, I want to know what it is. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't want to ever somebody be like, what is this? Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was like, I don't know. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And kind of that's where I've been, this feeling of Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, I can look through every work and tell you something Njideka Akunyili Crosby about every picture. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, like this is the album cover from. Emeka Okereke: Yeah, and that's what makes the work fascinating. Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, Onyeka Onwenu, this is a picture I took when she came Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: to a house in the village. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This is Bianca Onoh after she won this. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby This is this person. Njideka Akunyili Crosby This is Ojukwu's funeral, this, and Njideka Akunyili Crosby for me that, that was just a way to make sure that Njideka Akunyili Crosby I wasn't, I wasn't like Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, there's like a flattening or generalizing that Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: happens when people talk about the continent that was a way for me that I fought it. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It's funny because Sorry, it's funny. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So even when I So even when I have pictures of Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Orgelian stuff, I took those. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Or like, I know the person blowing your jar as Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a, he's a friend of mine, you know. Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Emeka Okereke It's amazing. Emeka Okereke One would think that, you know, with, you know, marginalization Emeka Okereke then it is more accessible, right? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: But it's the other way around, actually. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke The more specific you are to the story, the more it Emeka Okereke connects to the collective, the more the subjective is emphasized Emeka Okereke the more the collective is drawn in. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, and that's, sorry, keep interrupted. Emeka Okereke: So… Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I'm sorry. No, I only said that's actually what brought me to portrait fabrics Njideka Akunyili Crosby which is like, again, I love Ankara. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's a big part of growing up in Nigeria. Njideka Akunyili Crosby My grandmother would. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: My mother, you know, my mom, she always won Ankara. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That was like a uniform. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so again, when I was thinking of, okay, but how do I use this? Njideka Akunyili Crosby How is it mine? Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I realize like my connection or my experience Njideka Akunyili Crosby of ancara, a lot is actually 2 portrait fabrics Njideka Akunyili Crosby and that's kind of how portrait fabrics came into my work Njideka Akunyili Crosby and that actually ended up being something that enriched it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it didn't just stay in Ankara. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But, it was like this next step. Njideka Akunyili Crosby but also like using portrait fabric Njideka Akunyili Crosby it opened up the conversation or Njideka Akunyili Crosby the content of the work because it Njideka Akunyili Crosby it's talking about global trade and Njideka Akunyili Crosby global commerce. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Again, you know, Vlisco is produced in Europe. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's, we still import it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's a big part of identity, but it's not of us. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But then there is this next part, which is portrait Njideka Akunyili Crosby fabrics, which is in taking this method Njideka Akunyili Crosby of printing patterns on fabrics and Njideka Akunyili Crosby making this little shift, which is putting portrait Njideka Akunyili Crosby in it to commemorate weddings. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I think it was done when the queen visited, various African countries Njideka Akunyili Crosby doing it for burials. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I have one for Father Tansi’s, beatification. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But in this one little step that has was done to that. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Method of mechanical production, something different Njideka Akunyili Crosby was created that is now is unique Njideka Akunyili Crosby to the continent, and that felt Njideka Akunyili Crosby really tied to what I'm interested in Njideka Akunyili Crosby this like, working from, history Njideka Akunyili Crosby and technique of painting that is, Came Njideka Akunyili Crosby to me or came to PAFA and eventually to me through European Njideka Akunyili Crosby academies, but my using it and Njideka Akunyili Crosby finding that like something different Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that I do to it, that one little move that Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby then leads into it, leads it into something Njideka Akunyili Crosby else that is now mine. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I think a lot about inherited traditions, how we Emeka Okereke: Yes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby inherited tradition and then make it into Njideka Akunyili Crosby ours and take ownership of it. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Again, thinking of things like Afrobeats coming from rap Emeka Okereke: Exactly. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and reggaeton, but it's been changed. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Emeka Okereke It's been changed. Emeka Okereke It has been changed. Emeka Okereke It's so fascinating, this idea of like making it yours Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: because that's actually where the whole thing Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh. Emeka Okereke that's actually the, you know, the Emeka Okereke finding its own strand happens, which Emeka Okereke is really what this, the, you often Emeka Okereke talk about, the 3rd space. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke you know, in your work. Emeka Okereke But that thought space is not a generalized space actually. Emeka Okereke Because if he's in our lives, then it's the same Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: thing as, you know, the old. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke It's the same as the old. Emeka Okereke So the thought space cannot be generalized. Emeka Okereke It has to be specific. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Emeka Okereke So, and, we could even Emeka Okereke say that, between 1st century is the century Emeka Okereke of finding that thought space. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes. Emeka Okereke That specificity of it. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: That is actually what connects all of us. Emeka Okereke In all of this, and it's, and Emeka Okereke when, in your work, I'm seeing that that's actually what makes it so fascinating Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: and it, and it feels like a journey, you know, each and Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, God. Emeka Okereke: every one of them, you know, it feels like a journey. Emeka Okereke And I love the fact that you are able to sort of like do this and Emeka Okereke is holding its own also in the mainstream. Emeka Okereke Because the thing is, mainstream is Emeka Okereke is what it is, right? Emeka Okereke It has is his own beast. Emeka Okereke But if the work can hold its own in Emeka Okereke that, at history, and all the Emeka Okereke references it makes, and if it continues Emeka Okereke to create that space, to really look other work from that place. Emeka Okereke Then for me, I feel like, yes, it Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: is really moving forward, it is moving us forward. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, thank you. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby That comment means a lot to me because when I plan the Njideka Akunyili Crosby work and when I'm working on the composition, I'm making it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I am thinking of like Njideka Akunyili Crosby journey, cinema in my head. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I'm always thinking of like, when you walk in, how do you approach it? Njideka Akunyili Crosby How does it change when yes, it's interesting. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I, you know, I hired 3 extra people to work on this. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I think it was so fascinating for them because I'm Njideka Akunyili Crosby like talking to them about what I want and I think it was Njideka Akunyili Crosby fun to see them, like they're like, 0 god, this is all you Njideka Akunyili Crosby think about when you work. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's like, yes, I do consider all this. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like for the books on the shelf. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I had this incredible illustrator, Bijou, come help me. Njideka Akunyili Crosby She has very steady hands and she did the spines and the text. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And sometimes she'll do this text and it looks beautiful and I'll just Njideka Akunyili Crosby be like, no, you have to knock it down. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I had to explain, like, I, like, actually walk out, be like Njideka Akunyili Crosby I do not want the viewer to see it until they Njideka Akunyili Crosby are right here. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it would be maybe like 3 feet in front of the work. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And some I'll say, like, I don't want people to notice this Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby until they are right here. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah, wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't want people to notice it until they are right here. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And then you're, because I want, I wanted to do this. Emeka Okereke: Credit look. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't want a job, like sometimes like when you're Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: this far away, you see that book. Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: When you move over, you see this one, when you come closer, you see that one Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and there are things you're not going to see it, or you're like, literally, like Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby this close. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And there's a text on the card that you really will not see. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So like your face. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And even like the chain link fence in Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby front of the house is like you have to be this close to see it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So there is, it's like, it's like your body Njideka Akunyili Crosby becomes part of the experience of the work. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Again, I'm thinking of this like the way the work affects your body. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So as you come closer, move back, different things are doing this. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But then I'm also thinking of, and it's not just the Obama works, it's for everything I do. Njideka Akunyili Crosby but and that's why it's like, oh, I like it when people say my work Njideka Akunyili Crosby online, but I really want them to stand in front of it. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because it's like it's made for you to be in front of it. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: but also I'm thinking of how you see Njideka Akunyili Crosby it across. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So I think of cinematic. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I did this show once that the, it was a group show Njideka Akunyili Crosby Isaac Julien, I think it was Isaac Julien curated it Njideka Akunyili Crosby and I think the title was Cinematic Visions. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, oh, I love this. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I love this, and I'm so honored, they asked me to be in it because I do Njideka Akunyili Crosby think of that when I make the work, just like looking Njideka Akunyili Crosby through it and it's taking you on a journey. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And that's why like even things like when I transfer the Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: way I'm always moving the work so it feels dynamic Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so you kind of like your mind is always like, mm, mm Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: mm, oh, this, so it's like the way you move through Njideka Akunyili Crosby but then also creating this shifts in the Njideka Akunyili Crosby languages of not just languages of painting, but languages of image making. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, you know, like, sorry, there's a particular piece Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby in my head, but it's like you're looking at a Njideka Akunyili Crosby screen wall, transferred with images from Njideka Akunyili Crosby Nigeria, then you move a little bit and you're looking at Njideka Akunyili Crosby like a flat paint painted area that speaks to Njideka Akunyili Crosby a painting done by someone like Peter Njideka Akunyili Crosby Halley, who was the dean when I was in grad school. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And then you move and you're looking at the head of a Njideka Akunyili Crosby girl that is painted in a way that speaks to Northern Renaissance Njideka Akunyili Crosby art, and then you move a little bit and you're looking Njideka Akunyili Crosby at a table that is my grandmother's Njideka Akunyili Crosby table in the village, you know, with the plastic balls Njideka Akunyili Crosby and the thermos flask and the kerosene lamp Njideka Akunyili Crosby and then you move and you're seeing like more pictures Njideka Akunyili Crosby from another era, and you move and you're seeing like Njideka Akunyili Crosby a more loose paintings. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So you're really like, as as Njideka Akunyili Crosby you move, you're doing jumps in place Njideka Akunyili Crosby like you're going from photos to the internal Njideka Akunyili Crosby space, you're doing jumps in time, and even within Njideka Akunyili Crosby the photos, you're doing jumps in time, you're doing Njideka Akunyili Crosby jumps in ways Njideka Akunyili Crosby images are created, and you're also doing these jumps in Njideka Akunyili Crosby the different types, like the different. Emeka Okereke And also, in the treatment of the surface as well. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It's. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And sometimes like places might be rolled on, so they have a Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: different day activate like your eyes in a different way, and Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby then you move over and it might be like painted with a brush Njideka Akunyili Crosby which kind of does something else to your mind, and then you look Njideka Akunyili Crosby somewhere else and it might be like painted with Njideka Akunyili Crosby it, crushed, steel mixed into it, so it has a little Njideka Akunyili Crosby bit of like a sparkling texture. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it's this thing where you are Njideka Akunyili Crosby you're kind of, like, Constantly. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know how to explain it's like a day, I mean. Emeka Okereke: Is making you, is Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: orienting you, is making you change positions, move around it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Emeka Okereke: Move. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And Emeka Okereke: Which is what that journey is. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: is that distance, always negotiating distance between. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke And, again Emeka Okereke I thought about when the 1st century is, I Emeka Okereke was, I was speaking to someone that I say. Emeka Okereke Our preoccupation in 21st century is to We Emeka Okereke learn what that distance between the self and the other is. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I think that's why it works, because even if you don't know Njideka Akunyili Crosby the photos, the fact that you're having this Njideka Akunyili Crosby feeling and it's like the thing that it's doing within Njideka Akunyili Crosby you, we all understand it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby We all know it. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We've all lived it in some way. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Yeah, yeah, exactly. Emeka Okereke So that's so like what is asking that question over and over? Emeka Okereke What is actually intimacy? Emeka Okereke What is the language of it? Emeka Okereke You know, and how does it become embodied? Emeka Okereke How do you move with it? Emeka Okereke How do you come closer to it? Emeka Okereke You know, it's incredible. Emeka Okereke yeah. Emeka Okereke And this is a level where like, okay, we, this Emeka Okereke work has to be spoken about in this because I see when Emeka Okereke you are working on those. Emeka Okereke It's really like that, that's what the journey is. Emeka Okereke That's what that's what immediately. Emeka Okereke I think it's, is the consequence Emeka Okereke of having this mindset of crossing borders Emeka Okereke because every time a border is crossed. Emeka Okereke Paradox is the natural order. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Like you had to play. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's why I was drunk to your work. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I felt the connection. Emeka Okereke Yes. Emeka Okereke Paradox is a natural order. Emeka Okereke So there's no way you cross that line that you don't have to play with contradictions Emeka Okereke and distances and try to play with it. Emeka Okereke And that is so fascinating our time. Emeka Okereke This is something that we, coming from the Emeka Okereke African continent and moving, are really going to gift Emeka Okereke the world in our time, really strongly. Emeka Okereke because before that, you had that, the likes Emeka Okereke of Emeka Okereke James Baldwin, Toni Morrison Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: all of them, they were actually creating the space for Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: that commission to happen, you know? Emeka Okereke The city, you know, this is, you know, this Emeka Okereke is about shifting things and moving, you know, aha. Emeka Okereke But now those who are really going to now inject Emeka Okereke into that, you know. Emeka Okereke Aha. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: This is this is what that work is now. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm. Emeka Okereke is incredible. Emeka Okereke Fascinating. Emeka Okereke It's been wonderful to have this conversation with you. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Oh, it's such a pleasure talking to you. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So it's like, I left Nigeria in like 05 Njideka Akunyili Crosby and then I came back again for 6 months, but then I was just coming back Njideka Akunyili Crosby for weeks here and there, but in 2012 Njideka Akunyili Crosby I came back and stayed for a while and that's when I heard of Invisible Borders. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But my sister was living in Lagos. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because then I grew up in Enugu. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I feel like I'm not, I don't know if Bobbler Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby was a slang where you went. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I don't know if it was a QC slang, bobbler. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: No? Emeka Okereke: No. Emeka Okereke No. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: No. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: yeah, but like a Lagosian, like a cool Lagosian Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you know, like they jammed and they have satellite dishes. Emeka Okereke: Oh. Emeka Okereke Mm, mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, but I wasn't that,. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So even though I went to school in Lagos. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I never felt plugging to Lagos and that culture. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But in 2012, I came back to Njideka Akunyili Crosby Nigeria and stayed in Lagos because normally Njideka Akunyili Crosby even when I come back, I go to Abuja, I go to Enugu. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I stayed in Lagos because my sister, Chi Chi Njideka Akunyili Crosby was living there, and because she was living there, she got Njideka Akunyili Crosby plugged into like the Lagos scene. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So I ended up having that Lagos experience, but Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went to like Jazzhole Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Bogobiri. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: for people don't know, this is kind of like the culture Njideka Akunyili Crosby makers of Lego. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah, exactly. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that's when I heard about, like you were, very Emeka Okereke: Ah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby your work was very much part of that conversation. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I met, like, a Amaka Osakwe Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby who used to have Maki Oh, incredible fashion brand. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, that was a different Nigeria too. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I feel like every time I come back, you are meeting a different country. Emeka Okereke Yeah, and it's, yeah, it's Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: it's moving forward, it's going Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Or changes. Emeka Okereke I feel like it's taking a different shape now that we have social Emeka Okereke media and everything is getting modeled up and everything. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yes, but it's still moving. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know. Emeka Okereke It's still moving on its, on its own. Emeka Okereke And that's why when I look at your work and use like going Emeka Okereke deep into some of these. Emeka Okereke I mean, you don't have to say that you are not, you didn't come from like that Emeka Okereke bourgeoisie because even the way you, the things you work like Emeka Okereke you know, the pick milk and the sugar and the table, those things. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I kind of do, but again, even within Nigeria, it's mixed Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: because again, we didn't start off there, but towards the end Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: we kind of were, but I also used to live in the village. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So again, like even within Nigeria, there's that kind of like sampling Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: of different spaces. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Is a middle class is a classic middle class reality, you Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It is. Emeka Okereke know, which which is basically, I mean, look at your parents now. Emeka Okereke That's, they, are they, quitessential middle class Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: you know, they could now decide to say like us Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke it is built on, you know, having, you Emeka Okereke know, very being, not having excesses, we have, you Emeka Okereke know, a lot of fortright Igbo families are like that where they Emeka Okereke don't blow their horns, they focus on doing the work Emeka Okereke and raising their children to be able to make do with Emeka Okereke very little and put all of that energy in Emeka Okereke in hard work and excellence, you know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yeah. Emeka Okereke that's that's very normal from from the Igbo side Emeka Okereke that I know, you know. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: in my school at Marist Brothers Juniorate. Emeka Okereke The kids there were all, you know, like that, you know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Oh Emeka Okereke They came there for that. Emeka Okereke I remember that Yul Edochie. Emeka Okereke The filmmaker now was in my class. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: the son of Pete, yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Related to Pete? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Well, I'm the same class. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, he always makes it, he makes it into my work a lot because Njideka Akunyili Crosby he's Okonkwo. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I said, no matter how many times I see him, I'm like, oh, come on. Emeka Okereke: Yeah, I. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah, you know, so, and I'm like, you know, I remember Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh. Emeka Okereke like the grilling, you know, it wasn't so much about excesses. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It's about having, you know, children who are Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke excellent in what they do, but very, very curtailed Emeka Okereke in the spending, and then, you know, they don't spare Emeka Okereke you must have that experience. Emeka Okereke I come back home, you still play football on the street. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke: You still, we still go every weekend to our farm Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: to farm, and to bring, to bring Casava out of the ground. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You know? Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We had a yam fan, and Casava fan behind our house Njideka Akunyili Crosby like we words. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And then we did corn. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Emeka Okereke So, so you, looking at your work, reminds Emeka Okereke me of that sort of like that mixed, the middle plus Emeka Okereke especially of the Igbos, one not, that Emeka Okereke sort of like, all be all up, up there. Emeka Okereke There is, there is always, it was completely Emeka Okereke a mix. Emeka Okereke You know, I would I would go to my, you know, dormitory Emeka Okereke school, but when I come back Emeka Okereke There's no washing machine at home. Emeka Okereke You have to wash your clothes yourself. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You have to do. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I love washing clothes. Emeka Okereke Exactly. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It was one of my favorite days. Emeka Okereke: You Njideka Akunyili Crosby and you sit with a bucket in front of you. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Emeka Okereke You know? Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I loved watching. Emeka Okereke: And, Candles, my Emeka Okereke father was a candle maker, so, you Emeka Okereke know, we had, you know, candles everywhere, but then Emeka Okereke the NEPA go off, then candles will light off the whole place. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It become like a, like a, like a, like a church because we actually Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: have all the candles. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: But then we light on the whole place. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: with candles. Emeka Okereke There's no, you know, so there's also this mix. Emeka Okereke And what I find fascinating in the Emeka Okereke work is that you're not just throwing out all of this because it looks cool. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You are actually digging into that, those reference. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes. So exactly. That's what I mean. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I feel like that's what I was getting at, like, people can see that these are not random. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like when I put a kerosene lamp in something. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's not because structurally, it's fine. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's like, I'm using these objects that carry. Njideka Akunyili Crosby A lot for the people who know it. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So if you see a kerosene lamp, you're thinking of NEPA, you're Emeka Okereke: Yes. Yes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby thinking of the way infrastructure degraded Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in Nigeria over time, because I'm old enough to remember when NEPA Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, I remember when taking light was a Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: rare thing, and then it got worse and worse and worse till Emeka Okereke: Maybe. Njideka Akunyili Crosby when having light was the right thing, and then everybody had a generation. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So when you have the kerosene lamp, it's carrying all that. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's carrying like what happened with the Babangida Emeka Okereke: Yes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby regime, with a batcher, with sap. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And so it's not just, Like Njideka Akunyili Crosby oh, this lamp looks nice. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I feel like people don't always realize that. Emeka Okereke: No. No. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I think that's why I was thinking I like that this piece will Njideka Akunyili Crosby make people realize just how much thought and research goes Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: into every single thing in the space. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And it's interesting, like you mentioned, Pete Edochie, because he's someone Njideka Akunyili Crosby I will use in certain words, I've transferred him before. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, but he's someone we all recognize, but you don't just, he's Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, one, you recognize him, but it's like, at least for me, he's Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: a kong ko, and then that, it's like, he just, there are Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: all these things that ride on the pictures I use. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like each picture opens up a different conversation. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I mentioned the, for instance, like the doll Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the doll baby, toys, which I think I've used Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby in 2 works right now, but those were the Njideka Akunyili Crosby toys we used to use when we were young. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I was trying to Njideka Akunyili Crosby I started researching on it because I just assumed it Njideka Akunyili Crosby was produced somewhere outside Nigeria and then came to us. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And as I start researching it, they're called Clonette Njideka Akunyili Crosby dolls, just finding out that they're actually, like Njideka Akunyili Crosby made on in West Africa. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But they have an even more interesting history in that Njideka Akunyili Crosby they were made to be an updated version Njideka Akunyili Crosby of the Ghanaian akuaba dolls. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So they're kind of like referencing this old wooden dolls Njideka Akunyili Crosby but now they are made in plastic, but they are of a Njideka Akunyili Crosby Caucasian girl holding like a teddy bear and a daisy Njideka Akunyili Crosby which is not of us, but it's what we all played with because they were cheap. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But then also it has this history Njideka Akunyili Crosby and life that continues. Njideka Akunyili Crosby They are still being made. Njideka Akunyili Crosby but like the last time I went to the market and I was trying to find it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I couldn't find it anyway. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: People were just like, oh, we've not seen that in the market in years. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And I ended up buying some. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I have some, but I ended up buying it from a store Njideka Akunyili Crosby in Berlin. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Because it's now in a very big, like Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: interior design object in certain circles Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: in Europe, so now they don't even sell it in the, on the continent anymore. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Wow, wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's again like when I have that object in the space. Njideka Akunyili Crosby One, it looks good, but I'm also thinking of the history, this Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: carries, the conversation about global trade Emeka Okereke: Yes, yes. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and like how things move and Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby culture and markets. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So again, like every little thing is like Njideka Akunyili Crosby has all these things. Njideka Akunyili Crosby other things riding on it and sometimes I feel like, oh Njideka Akunyili Crosby those don't always come across, but someday. Emeka Okereke And then constantly emphasizing that Emeka Okereke this post-colonial reality we speak of is not something that Emeka Okereke is happening outside modernity, you know Emeka Okereke like they like to make it, oh, is Emeka Okereke is the preoccupation of those who are colonized. Emeka Okereke It's a global condition. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh. Emeka Okereke: Frantz Fanon calls it a double bind between the colonized and the colonized, intertwined. Emeka Okereke And so the colonial or the post-colonial Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: is all of those things entering again into Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: the, into Emeka Okereke modernity because they were put aside, it Emeka Okereke was happening in the sidelines, you know, but Emeka Okereke now they are entering again and complicating that image. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: And telling you Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh Emeka Okereke know, this is, it has always been there, but now we are showing you Emeka Okereke this is actually, what? Emeka Okereke The post-colonia looks like. Emeka Okereke when it is allowed to really enter. Emeka Okereke As as you should be into modernity. Emeka Okereke And that cannot, there can't be any postmodem Emeka Okereke proposition without that. Emeka Okereke You cannot move into the postmodem. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: If that doesn't happen. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yeah Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: That would be another recreation of that fantasy of. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Yeah, so a real moving into postmodem Emeka Okereke that complication, that's, you know, like. Emeka Okereke That thought space must really resolve Emeka Okereke itself completely, and people must really, it must become part of everyday reality, you know. Emeka Okereke Yeah, that's why I feel like that's. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: This century is that is that time for that, is really that time for that. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke This is this is for me where your work. Emeka Okereke same condition I had with John Akomfrah. Emeka Okereke same conversation I had with, you know, Otobong Emeka Okereke Nkanga, you know, saying, every, the same Emeka Okereke everyone is doing that same. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Oh, we all stuck in the same pool. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I keep thinking that, like, we are even across different genres Emeka Okereke: Yes. Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like fashion, literature, arts Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Mhm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sound arts, photos, sculpture Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: installation, we really are, because we're all living in the same world and the Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby the things we all seen. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's the same. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But I think it was all like Emeka, the other Emeka. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: The, is it the Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sound. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Emeka Okereke: sound, the sound artist? Yes. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I love, love that one. Emeka Okereke: Yeah, exactly. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: And so now, there's also Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke those behind listening. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: And watch it. Emeka Okereke I can already see some young artists Emeka Okereke you know, making artwork that looks like almost like yours. Emeka Okereke You know? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: so they say imitation is the best form of flattery. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, it's an honor. Emeka Okereke: So. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went through my Wangechi phase. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I went through my Kerry phase. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I went through my Mickalene phase. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Sometimes you have to go through that and then you start to ask, okay Njideka Akunyili Crosby but how is my interest different from that person? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And eventually you push away. Emeka Okereke Yeah, yeah, yeah. Emeka Okereke So, so I, it's something that is, but Emeka Okereke it was most important is that Emeka Okereke What is going on in the work is very much understood Emeka Okereke you know, Like Emeka Okereke you know, profoundly because Emeka Okereke Because that's actually what needs to be what needs to pass on, you Emeka Okereke know, when you understand it, then there is no imitation Emeka Okereke is redundant. Emeka Okereke If you understand something, you know. Emeka Okereke So, you can you can create your own. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes. Emeka Okereke but yeah. Emeka Okereke It's been wonderful. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, this has been so lovely. Emeka Okereke: I think. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I'm sorry, I wanted to turn, turn the, sorry, put Njideka Akunyili Crosby attention on you a bit, but I was almost, I'm sitting here Njideka Akunyili Crosby thinking of, when I 1st saw Jewel by Lisa Njideka Akunyili Crosby and how you, I was having this thought. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I was like, why is nobody doing this? Njideka Akunyili Crosby And then I saw somebody doing it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby But I also not always, but I always had this thought of like Njideka Akunyili Crosby why don't we travel within the continent? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I really don't. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I don't know if that much is changing. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Now you hear a lot of people going to Ghana, but growing up, it Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby really was not common. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I felt like I remember in QC, this one person for the Njideka Akunyili Crosby summer went to Ivory Coast and we all kind of looked like, why did Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: she go to Ivory Coast? Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it was so fascinating for me when I heard about Njideka Akunyili Crosby Invisible Borders? Njideka Akunyili Crosby And again, it was just like learning that somebody had Njideka Akunyili Crosby taken up this question I had kind of had at the Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: back of my mind for a while, like, why do Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby people not travel across? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I like around the continent. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So that was just, So fascinating. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And I think my question is, do you have any trips planned in future Njideka Akunyili Crosby or is that on ice for now? Emeka Okereke We, as we speak. Emeka Okereke we are planning the 11th edition Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: of the road trip, starting, it's going to start in November, this November. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm, yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: We are, we are moving from Morocco to Nigeria. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Wow, no. Emeka Okereke So, I mean, the middle of playing all of that while I'm doing this too. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh my goodness. Emeka Okereke: So. Emeka Okereke So, yeah, that's the one, that's the next one coming and Emeka Okereke and it's, I'm looking forward to it. Emeka Okereke It's 11th edition. Emeka Okereke And all of this is basically 1st and foremost for us to see ourselves. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: You know, in your work also, that's what we are Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: looking to see ourselves because there's always been this intermediary. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke: You know, that's also what barack woman is talking about, you know, I decide. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke You know, that's what every black person is actually reaching for. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: How can we see ourselves? Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke You know? Emeka Okereke And so the road trips is a space of encounter. Emeka Okereke But really develop the vocabulary to actually look at ourselves. Emeka Okereke Your work is doing that. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: If I look at your work, I see that, you know, I see myself. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I have titles that reference that. Emeka Okereke: But I also see. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, I have one that is like home as you see me and then there's one is like Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: about how I see me and yeah, but I'm not in Emeka Okereke: Yeah. So, Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: here like, yep, yep, yep. Emeka Okereke That that mirroing needs to happen. Emeka Okereke I, people might just say, oh, it is happening Emeka Okereke of course, in the work that we're making, but no, it begs Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: for a kind of aesthetic to it. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm. Emeka Okereke It begs for a kind of treatment of that scene. Emeka Okereke You have to play with it. Emeka Okereke You have to, you have Emeka Okereke to acknowledge all of the paradox and contradictions Emeka Okereke that make up, The reality Emeka Okereke of the black person that is that is on the move. Emeka Okereke Because that black body is always stopped. Emeka Okereke As he wants to move. Emeka Okereke And so the only way it can keep moving is to accommodate Emeka Okereke all the contradictions and actually incorporate it into its movement Emeka Okereke and, you know, show it. Emeka Okereke So, when I see that work and say, yeah, all of these considerations Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: you're making, those research bring in here and them like, yes, that Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm. Emeka Okereke is actually bringing all of those moving parts into Emeka Okereke the conversation as opposed to, say, oh, this will stop me. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke From moving, but I bring it into. Emeka Okereke And I've, I've, I've even heard some interview, you talk about like Emeka Okereke I am not, you know, some, what I'm doing is Emeka Okereke Other people bring cultures from Nigeria to America. Emeka Okereke You know, and Also Emeka Okereke people take from, from, from Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Nigeria, you know, and some people might call it appropriation. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: So why can't I not take from American American Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm, mm. Emeka Okereke: history, American reality, I have lived it. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It is, yes, I have, I am, remember, you know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I've lived it for decades. Emeka Okereke So, these are all of these considerations, and Emeka Okereke I feel like there is, this is also, I discussed with Emeka Okereke John, I confront during our podcast, it's like, there Emeka Okereke is no one image. Emeka Okereke This is something we have to be. Emeka Okereke You know, is a pitfall to think of it as one image that will resolve it all. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: But the very exploration, the Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke the journey itself, the process, is the thing itself. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yeah. Emeka Okereke the art world does not. Emeka Okereke You know, accept that so much. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke But that also will Emeka Okereke change at world. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It will change at world in our time. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Of course, yeah. Emeka Okereke: Really? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so the final, sorry, the final question I have about Njideka Akunyili Crosby the trip as I'm listening is Njideka Akunyili Crosby I remember you saying that something you found Njideka Akunyili Crosby out in some of your earlier trips is how even Njideka Akunyili Crosby things like the roads and the highways. Njideka Akunyili Crosby You know how sometimes like things you experience and Njideka Akunyili Crosby you're living through speak to the history of the space Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: so the highways and the countries that are connected Emeka Okereke: Mm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby speak to like how the continent was divided up. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So Ghana is very connected to Nigeria. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's like an easy road because the British own both countries. Njideka Akunyili Crosby So when you're going from Morocco to Nigeria, is Njideka Akunyili Crosby there a Clare Road that runs through those? Njideka Akunyili Crosby Are you having to do a weird jigsaw Njideka Akunyili Crosby road, are you putting together? Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I don't know if I'm explaining this well, are you put in, because the 2 countries Emeka Okereke: Yeah, yeah, there's a clear road, but it runs in the coast. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: are multi-connected. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Oh. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: When you come inland now, you have to be now mindful Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh. Emeka Okereke because all of those policies happening in Burkina Faso Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mali and Niger is breaking up the whole thing now Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm, okay. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: because of course, you know, they want to break away from ecoas and Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: and form their own. Emeka Okereke So that is creating a, Making us have a detour. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Otherwise, is a street road on the coast, all the way to Nanji. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: There is a direct road otherwise. Oh, okay. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But not, not like, as Emeka Okereke: It's… Not inland. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: the quill flies, okay. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah, not inland yet. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Even when there's no political unrest, not yet. Emeka Okereke Oh, no, no, there's when there is no, there is a road. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: When there is no political unrest, you can pass through Senegal into Mali. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: And we have done that route many times, Mali into Burkina Faso, you can pass inland. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okay. Cool. Emeka Okereke But you don't Emeka Okereke pass through the Sahara. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: That's very difficult to go through and very dangerous. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Bandits, everything happening between Emeka Okereke Morocco and Western Sahara. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: That also is a very contested space because Western Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Hmm. Emeka Okereke Sahara still feels like they are being colonized by Morocco. Emeka Okereke That is not part of Morocco. Emeka Okereke That also we have to contend with as well. Emeka Okereke So there's all of those divide, but, The Emeka Okereke way I see it is this. Emeka Okereke I've been, I Emeka Okereke talk about a kind of a pragmatic optimism. Emeka Okereke That, Africans have in abundance. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah Emeka Okereke: So, Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The beautiful ones, that's it for me. It's the singer optimistic. Emeka Okereke Yeah Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Is it, but it's a very pragmatic one. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke In the sense that, you Emeka Okereke It comes into play when you see the obstacles like itself Emeka Okereke you know, you say we are going to, because that's the only Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: way you can clear that road, open that road. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh. Emeka Okereke You know, by having, by appreciating that pragmatic Emeka Okereke optimism that we have, it is what your mom Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: ran with, you know, it is an Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mhm. Emeka Okereke estrange pragmatic optimism. Emeka Okereke She knew that she could put it here and it will stand. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes. Emeka Okereke Even if everything comes towards her against her. Emeka Okereke Believes so much in that. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes. Emeka Okereke Optimism that we have. Emeka Okereke So, that's also very inspiring and it's so funny because Emeka Okereke as I was, you know, researching for our conversation. Emeka Okereke In the past one week, I've been looking at this question of the pragmatic Emeka Okereke optimism, and that's actually how I can, I framed the Emeka Okereke way I understand the work of your, of your mom. Emeka Okereke It came from the strong because someone can easily Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: be pessimistic because of that. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, say it's too much. Emeka Okereke: You know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's not possible. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It's too daunting. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: She never, never given to that. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Emeka Okereke But the only thing that could lead that is not just about Emeka Okereke It's not vengeance, right? Emeka Okereke It's a selling kind of optimism that this can Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: can change, you know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Sorry, now that you're talking, I want to look up a map. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I want to see your route. Njideka Akunyili Crosby That's so exciting. Emeka Okereke Yeah, so,. Njideka Akunyili Crosby How many people are going this time? Emeka Okereke We are up to 12 of us divided into modules. Emeka Okereke So some people will come and leave while some will stay all Emeka Okereke the way along the Emeka Okereke Yeah, so if you are following Invisible Borders Emeka Okereke on Instagram, you are getting the updates on how we are moving. Emeka Okereke We are planning it. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: That's wonderful. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Oh wow. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So Morocco, Mauritania. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Senegal. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The Senegal. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: And then we now go into Guinea, Guinea Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Guinea okay. Emeka Okereke Ivory Coast, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Ghana. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Oh, yeah, so you're skipping Sierra Leone, Liberia because Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: that has okay, yeah. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So, 0 wow. Emeka Okereke: We're skipping that because if we go through there, there's more borders Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke: although that's also, you Emeka Okereke know, a journey for another day, you know? Emeka Okereke And we are already aiming for our next 2027 Emeka Okereke road trip, which is going to be in East Africa. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: So, This journey, it's Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, that's amazing. Emeka Okereke it's really, Personally Emeka Okereke for me, I've come to the point where I'm like, It's Emeka Okereke It's very much in line with the conversations Emeka Okereke that we are having in our time. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: So I don't I don't think of it as something that I Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke have to, you know, effort, you know, have Emeka Okereke You know, Like work so has to put myself in. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: No, no, no, it's just flowing is natural. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke: consequence of how our time is unfolding. Emeka Okereke You know, in your work and everyone, everyone is coming at Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: it from different ways, in different Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke ways, in their in their way, in their own, you know? Emeka Okereke So, that's also what makes it. Emeka Okereke So I feel like I'm, I feel a sense Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: of comp, companionship, even when, you Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Same. Emeka Okereke know, even when we're not, you're Emeka Okereke not in the bus or in the van, you're doing the work like, oh Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: yeah, we are all going in the some way, you know, coming Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke at it from different angle. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yeah. Emeka Okereke I'm proposing something that is Emeka Okereke You know, is Emeka Okereke Is the transformation of the human psyche and intelligence. Emeka Okereke That's all. Emeka Okereke It's not about being good. Emeka Okereke It's not about being better. Emeka Okereke It's simply how can we task this intelligence Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: a little bit, you know, like, yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Uh-huh. Emeka Okereke And when it went from the African perspective, there's is an Emeka Okereke ancient, continent, you know Emeka Okereke by the time we begin to really look at Emeka Okereke those references deeper Emeka Okereke then you see what kind of intelligence comes out of that. Emeka Okereke That is the part that excites me more, you know. Emeka Okereke You know, even the Igbo language. Emeka Okereke In a way, you begin to look at all of those ilu properly. Emeka Okereke It has prepared you for every where you want to touch, you want to go in the war. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I keep thinking of all this. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I did mention this earlier, but anybody who knows my dad. Njideka Akunyili Crosby The one thing he was known for. Njideka Akunyili Crosby was he was very good with ilu. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So that's why he told Justin, like Ejuna n'aga, o kpulu nkoluko ya. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He's that person for like every situation. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He just pulls one out of the bag and it's like perfect. Emeka Okereke: Fools won. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It's great. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: But my whole life, like my whole memory of him, he had a book. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It was like a black, like diary looking leather bound book. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And every time he heard an ilu, he wrote it down. Emeka Okereke: He rats it down. Emeka Okereke Wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I have been looking for that book. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Since he died. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I couldn't, and I thought it was just me because, you know, I like archiving Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and I just thought, 0 my god, that is an archive, because you Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby find ilu here and there, but a book full of them Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: and then like, last year, one of my siblings Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby on the group chat was like, what happened to Daddy's book of ilu? Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I was like, oh, yo, trust me, I have been looking for it, but we don't know where it is. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Wow, wow. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: We don't know where it is. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Like every time I go home, I am just like looking through every Emeka Okereke: Hey. Njideka Akunyili Crosby cupboard, every bookshelf, because Njideka Akunyili Crosby that's like, 0 my god, such an archive. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Just like, because there's no, I don't know that anyone collects Emeka Okereke: Yeah, it is. Njideka Akunyili Crosby it or there's a record somewhere, but he must have over 500 Njideka Akunyili Crosby written in that book. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It is indeed an archive, and this is something also Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Deep knowledge, deep, deep knowledge. Emeka Okereke: it's a, it, look into it. Yeah. Emeka Okereke Yeah, deep, deep. Emeka Okereke You know, in the Igbo language is very specific. Emeka Okereke It's not, you see, unlike, unlike Emeka Okereke those who, who will write. Emeka Okereke Or use a language to describe. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: The Igbo language is used to animate, to live, to Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke live life, you know? Emeka Okereke So when someone says, anya ruo gi ala. Emeka Okereke That is to let your eyes reach the ground. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: It's not telling you. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yeah. Emeka Okereke Says hey, let your eyes touch the ground. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Because when you begin to look from there, you see everything. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yes. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Uh-huh. Njideka Akunyili Crosby no, but it's like, my dad's funeral Njideka Akunyili Crosby one of my relatives, young kid was telling me like his mom Njideka Akunyili Crosby died when he was really young and he was telling me like as an Njideka Akunyili Crosby adult, he was having a hard time. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And he had a conversation with my dad and my dad told him. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Okuko efughi n'oriom, ogaghi efu na nneku. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby And it was, you know, it's like sometimes it's just, oh, it's Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: just like one sentence that, Just shows Emeka Okereke: Well, you know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: you by just saying if you didn't get, if a chicken was not lost Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: as a chick, they would not be lost as an adult. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's almost like if you survive this horrible thing that Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: happened to you, which is losing your mom as a kid. Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Mm-hmm. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: This thing happening now will not shake you. Emeka Okereke: We're not we're not, we're not. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: You know, it's like, oh, that was so deep. Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: He says that kind of stuff. Emeka Okereke: So deep. Njideka Akunyili Crosby He's like, I want that book. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, I, oh. Emeka Okereke: You know, and also for us now. Emeka Okereke working like this now, it's, you know, going Emeka Okereke even to go and sit. Emeka Okereke I from Arochukwu, the so-called Arochukwu that everyone Emeka Okereke knows was very instrumental in the shipping Emeka Okereke of the Igbo, you know, reality Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: up until the time they fought the war with the, with the British, you know. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Like, I went to my village, the Emeka Okereke book I have here of the history of it was given to me by our Eze. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke He even autographed it. Emeka Okereke I have it here with me. Emeka Okereke He, so, and that is it, the lineage Emeka Okereke has been there since the founding of the same family. Emeka Okereke Up until now. Emeka Okereke So I was it, I filmed him, you know, interviewed him. Emeka Okereke You know, and I opened the Buddha that I saw how he wrote Emeka Okereke down all his titles. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh. Emeka Okereke: Even the ancient name of Arochukwu, Eze Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Ibom, of Arochukwu, and the Ibom Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: those were the people who were there, the Akwa Ibom people, what Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Ooh, not quite… Emeka Okereke: yeah, before Arochukwu came. Emeka Okereke So he even said, it's a Ibom. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: So even the way he mentioned himself, was referencing all the way. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Oh, no. Emeka Okereke Ah, man, it was, it was. Emeka Okereke It's incredible. Emeka Okereke So what I'm trying to say is that all of that is still there, waiting for us to come and ask. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Emeka Okereke: You know, say, oh, yeah? Emeka Okereke Yeah, so that it's, but it's important that Emeka Okereke we turn to, if our reference begin to touch on that. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Why we have all of these other connections now in the world. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke Because I when I realize that the Igbo language has prepared me for everywhere Emeka Okereke I want to go to in the world. Emeka Okereke I relaxed. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You know, like, Onye ajuju anaghi efu uzo. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke: Ebe oku nyuru, amusa owa. Emeka Okereke You know, like wherever the light goes off in Emeka Okereke the day, that's where you pitch your tent. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Emeka Okereke: Like, yes, now. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: So if you get to France, you stay in France until the Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: light comes up again, you move. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: The light comes back. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Whereas I can't, whenever I try to describe the ilu Njideka Akunyili Crosby like, no, it just, they don't translate, it's an, like Njideka Akunyili Crosby where you deploy the perfect one for a situation. Emeka Okereke Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Nothing beats it. Emeka Okereke: Is it's, yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby It's like you can talk for one hour or you can just give the right ilu. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: And it's done. Emeka Okereke: And yes, and it's done and it's done. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Because it's just deep knowledge. Emeka Okereke: So when I started re-aptigating, those ilu Emeka Okereke in myself, I began to feel a sense of, you know Emeka Okereke relaxing, because you realize that these people have Emeka Okereke these sojournas, they have been moving. Emeka Okereke You know, there's all these metaphors about journeys. Emeka Okereke It's littered everywhere in the Igbo language. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: That tells you that they have they have Johnny people. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Oh yeah, even Okuko efughi n'oriom. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: So it's like, if you didn't get lost as a chick, it's Emeka Okereke: Yeah. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: like, around, like movements, being lost. Emeka Okereke: You know, movement, movement is so is Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Emeka Okereke so you get a sense that, At some Emeka Okereke point, it thought is also the narrative. Emeka Okereke Africa has always been a story of journeys. Emeka Okereke This is actually what inspired the Invisible Borders project Emeka Okereke is this narrative that it is about slavery and limitation. Emeka Okereke No, it was 1st and foremost a story of journeys, people moving. Emeka Okereke You know, that's a different kind of intelligence when Emeka Okereke you see reality that way, as in constant movement. Emeka Okereke hospitality, you Emeka Okereke carry what, you know, you carry what is. Emeka Okereke What is necessary? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: That is the whole ilu of the snail. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You carry only what is, the shell of Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. Emeka Okereke the snail is a refuge now. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Yeah. Emeka Okereke And the snail moves very slowly. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: So he must carry the shell because that is his decoy. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke You know? Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: You know, it’s a decoy. Because, you know, Ikenga Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Yes. Yeah. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: is a, is a two-faced a deity. Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Mm-hmm. Emeka Okereke He says, if you're going forward, you have the, you are going. Emeka Okereke If you are going backwards, it's the same. Njideka Akunyili Crosby You're going. Emeka Okereke So all of that, when you think about it that way, then you Emeka Okereke you begin to ask yourself, what is the orientation? Emeka Okereke What is my, so, the Emeka Okereke The focus of your, of your intervention begins to Emeka Okereke shift away from justifying who you are and Emeka Okereke what, what, and what you are doing, and then you Emeka Okereke begin to see reality properly and how Emeka Okereke you actually affect it. Emeka Okereke Yeah. Emeka Okereke So, when we look at it from that angle Emeka Okereke I see possibly, I see of optimism. Emeka Okereke Right? Emeka Okereke And I see, I see these species of Emeka Okereke exciting interventions that we are all a Emeka Okereke part of. Emeka Okereke So yeah. Njideka Akunyili Crosby This has been so wonderful. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Thank you, thank you. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Thank you for inviting me and I'm so happy. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: It worked out. Emeka Okereke: Yes. Emeka Okereke Yes, I'm glad we made it happen. Emeka Okereke So, this is what we ended for today. Njideka Akunyili Crosby yeah, I just, it was so easy to chat. Njideka Akunyili Crosby I felt like we're just like chatting. Njideka Akunyili Crosby One day it was a podcast. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you so much for the invitation and for the lovely conversation. Emeka Okereke: All right. Overlapping speech Njideka Akunyili Crosby: I had a wonderful time. Emeka Okereke: Yeah, my pleasure as well. Emeka Okereke Thank you so much, and I'm glad that we were Emeka Okereke able to have the occasion, you know, the fortune Emeka Okereke to be able to make this happen. Overlapping speech Emeka Okereke: Yeah, and for all of you listening, I hope Njideka Akunyili Crosby: Thank you. Emeka Okereke you've enjoyed the conversation, and yeah. Emeka Okereke Bye-bye. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Bye. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Thank you listeners, thank you, Emeka. Njideka Akunyili Crosby Bye. Emeka Okereke Yes, bye bye, yeah. [Closing theme music]